The FemCatholic contributors often have “behind the scenes” conversations as we brainstorm ideas for future posts, and the topic of men and Catholic feminism recently led to pretty spirited discussion! Many of the contributors had a lot to add to the discussion, we so thought it would be fun to share our conversation. As you’ll soon notice, our conversation is informal; we’re not intending this to be a fully developed post, but we hope you enjoy reading how we responded to the questions below. Feel free to join the conversation in the comments!

What role do men play in Catholic feminism? How can men help or support the Catholic feminists in their lives? Why is Catholic feminism not just for women?

‪Charlene Bader‪ Oooh, I love this.

‪Theresa Woodhouse‪ I like this question because I think we get into trouble if we start arguing that any justice-related issues are only important for those who are directly affected. Can we truly say we are part of a Christian community if only women act in a way that defends the dignity of women?

Can we truly say we are part of a Christian community if only women act in a way that defends the dignity of women?

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ Right! Also, there’s only so much we can do to improve things for women if men aren’t on board.

‪Emily Archer‪ I think it's incredibly helpful for men to listen to grievances/complaints that women have (whether doctrinal or pastoral or whatever) and really try to understand what the concern is before trying to resolve it. This is true for any relationship between any two people anywhere, but especially in situations where one party routinely feels ignored and passed over. There are a lot of women (and men) who do not want to commit heresy, but have real and profound questions about Church teaching. And it's very hurtful to have someone try to fix what he assumes/perceives the problem to be without first acknowledging the concerns of the other. And for a lot of people, quick one-sentence answers to complex issues (whether it's "The Bible/Catechism says so" or "marriage is between one man and one woman" or any other slogan), however true, don't get at the heart of our questions. And we have to be willing to dialogue with people. Especially since someone else's questions can ultimately lead both people to a deeper, richer understanding of God.

It's very hurtful to have someone try to fix what he assumes/perceives the problem to be without first acknowledging the concerns of the other.

‪Theresa Woodhouse‪ Good points. I'd actually love to hear a priest talk about the importance of simply listening to women more. I've had good, Catholic men tell me that the idea of "mansplaining" doesn't exist -- and I'm not sure how women can genuinely share their experiences if the starting place is the claim that you're not having the experiences that you say you are having.

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ I think it might be important to note that men seem to have to work harder to see privilege or power dynamics at play. It might be genuinely true that the role of women in the Church is not about power, but we also have to understand why it might look like it does. I think that’s one of the underlying problems causing misunderstandings in these conversations, and why women end up getting gaslighted.

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ I also find that this applies to conversations that aren’t even about doctrine or pastoral issues. I’ve had some male friends make a conscious effort to not interrupt women and strive to understand what women are saying before responding, which is really helpful for having good conversations.

Charlene Bader‪ Theresa, I laughed at your above comment, because I think the conversation in which men mansplain "mansplaining" is such an ironic and common experience. (That said, I'll agree with Mary Ashley that many guys adjust their conversation styles upon learning this term exists.)

‪Kay David‪ I was talking to a guy friend last night about how I needed a break from being active in the parish, due in large part to the men. I tried to explain they weren’t bad guys, I just always felt like when I meet a new person in the church they either wanted something from me, or were trying to decide if they wanted something from me. I then had to spend the rest of the time defending the fact that I wasn’t saying people at our parish are bad people (which he first jumped to) and that I wasn’t “complaining that I’m constantly being hit on” (the second thing he jumped to).

I know he’s well meaning and wants to help, but he also can’t seem to deal with the duality of my experiences and the above statements in the same conversation. If that makes sense.

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ YES. Along with listening and acknowledging, not assuming that people who ask questions have some ulterior motive or an ax to grind.

‪Emily Archer‪ I remember talking to two friends of mine (both young men) at a time in my life when I was really struggling to reconcile my faith and my feminism. I knew both of them to be intelligent and devout Catholics, and I trusted their advice and judgment. And when I spoke to one of them, I could tell he was trying to help, but nothing he was saying was resonating with me, and from what I remember, he ended up saying that he'd heard good reasons for the Church’s teaching in the past, that he couldn't remember/articulate them, and that ultimately he chose to trust the Church.

To be fair, he did give me very helpful advice on who else to ask my questions of (acknowledging that he didn’t have all the answers for me), but at the time, I was so disappointed with his response overall. I don’t remember if he said outright, or if I just got the impression, that it was easier for him to not understand and still trust because it didn’t directly affect him. I knew I was supposed to trust the Church, and I did (or was trying to), but it was actually incredibly frustrating to be told "I just trust the Church." I remember telling the other friend (also male) that it didn't make sense to me how my concerns could be so easily dismissed (and to this friend's credit, he agreed with me. And then sat up past midnight discussing this with me.)

But honestly - if the Church is oppressing women, that has implications for EVERYONE in the Church. If the Church does not recognize the full dignity of women, that is something for ALL of us to be concerned with, because that means the Church is not who she says she is.

But honestly - if the Church is oppressing women, that has implications for EVERYONE in the Church. If the Church does not recognize the full dignity of women, that is something for ALL of us to be concerned with, because that means the Church is not who she says she is. And men should not be able to push these questions to the side because they don't concern men. Questions about women's role/place/dignity in the Church are questions about the Church herself. And that's not something any of us can ignore. Now, I obviously don't think the Church is oppressing women, but it is 100% our job as Catholics to bring others (and ourselves) to a more perfect understanding of the Church and the faith. Which we can't do if we're all content to ignore our questions.

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ This points to a larger problem, which is that the answers that satisfy men don’t necessarily satisfy women. And that is huge. I had this discussion with a priest recently and basically his answer was “men and women are different in kind but not in degree.” And he couldn’t really elaborate on that or answer further questions I had. He just repeated that a few times, shaking his head as if I were just not getting it, until I gave up.

This points to a larger problem, which is that the answers that satisfy men don’t necessarily satisfy women.

Emily Archer‪ That's really interesting, I'd never quite put that together. That maybe men and women are looking for different answers anyway. That's the really amazing thing about the Catholic faith, too, that while there are clearly defined doctrines, there are lots of "reasons" (for lack of a better word) that support them. And if we don't find a particular reason compelling, that's fine. It may still be true, but there are other reasons that can speak to us. Ultimately, we're not dealing with just a few variables to be put into a logical formula that spits out "the truth". We're dealing with a reality, created by a loving and beautiful God, that reflects that love and beauty and mercy in millions of different facets... I don't know how much that makes sense. Sometimes my thoughts take a really poetic turn but my brain doesn't know how to translate that into words!

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ It makes sense! I think part of it too is that everyone has their own lens, so even the questions they’re asking might be different. In the end, we might arrive at the same place, but need a different way to get there.

‪Theresa Woodhouse‪ Emily, I think your point about how if the Church is oppressing women then the Church is failing all of us is something that needs to be said!

‪Charlene Bader‪ I really like how you compared the two types of conversation -- one told you a bottom line that you should believe no matter what, and the other waded into the depths with you, and really searched with you, for both the roots of the question, and then possible answers.

‪Megan Gettinger‪ "Questions about women's role/place/dignity in the Church are questions about the Church herself." ‪Woah. Emily, that could be its own post altogether!

‪Emily Archer‪ Megan, ooh, good idea!

‪Megan Gettinger‪ Charlene, that is a really good distinction and I think that we need to ask men simply to be willing to wade into the depths alongside us, to be ok with having conversations that don't necessarily end with clear cut answers or an action plan. ‪Duc in altum!

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ One way that Catholic Feminism is not just for women is that when women are able to fully realize themselves as the women God created them to be, the whole world benefits. I think sometimes in the Catholic world we see feminism as being all about what women are trying to grasp for, and therefore some people develop a nostalgia for the way things used to be, when roles were defined and women knew their place. But we don’t look at the ways that the world could be even better when everyone has more opportunities to use their God-given gifts and talents. Many Catholics get stuck in a very pessimistic vision of what society would be like if “feminists got their way”, and throw the baby out with the bath water. The Catholic feminist vision empowers women to be MORE themselves, but not at the expense of everything (and everyone) else.

I think sometimes in the Catholic world we see feminism as being all about what women are trying to grasp for, and therefore some people develop a nostalgia for the way things used to be, when roles were defined and women knew their place.

‪Emily Archer‪ All of this has me thinking: I’ve noticed that I don’t even like to talk about “women’s roles in the Church,” because we NEVER talk about “men’s roles,” so the term “women’s roles” makes me think of a little niche that women can have to themselves so they feel important, while the wider Church (Christians, namely men) does its own thing. And I’m wondering if that’s how a lot of men see the conversation around “women’s role(s)” in the Church. That Catholic feminism is only a special interest group, a sort of hobby within the Church.

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ That would explain the "isn't what you already have enough?" response.

‪Theresa Woodhouse‪ I think that’s a really good point. The role of men in the Church seems to be obvious, which is why the conversation of “roles in the Church” tends to be identified with women. (Side note: I suspect “role of men in the Church” is such a given because of the priesthood, but this assumption that priesthood = men’s roles assumes a pretty poor understanding of the priesthood.) I think for this reason, we (the Church) need to be better at talking about the inherent dignity and complementarity of both sexes. And this is a large part of what Catholic feminism is, right? Raising the dignity of both, not one?

I suspect “role of men in the Church” is such a given because of the priesthood, but this assumption that priesthood = men’s roles assumes a pretty poor understanding of the priesthood.

‪Charlene Bader‪ Ugh. Emily, your reference to Catholic feminism as a "hobby" in the Church makes me cringe. You're so right. It's seen as a social club for discontent women instead of an umbrella for all the diversity that women actually are!

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ Or, worse...a social club out to destroy the Church, appropriating a faddish secular social movement in order to feel cool.

‪Charlene Bader‪ That sentiment is really prevalent. ‪:-( I remember feeling so lonely as a young, married, Catholic mom who worked full-time. There didn't seem to be a place in the Church for me. I wasn't a nun or a stay-at-home mom, so I must be doing something wrong.

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ Charlene, as a single Catholic woman in her 30s, that is how I feel almost all of the time. It's like a don't even have a valid identity since I'm not married and not a mom, and have zero interest in religious life. Even my friends that do seem to be "doing everything right" often feel like they are not measuring up in some way.

‪Since we are talking about the importance of men's support, part of the problem is how women have been categorized historically in order to make sense of who they are in relation to men, rather than seeing women for the individual people they are. It would be really great if we could celebrate individuality more.

‪Megan Gettinger‪ I would be curious to hear from some men how they would define "man's role in the Church" as well as "women's role in the Church." If it is assumed that man's role is the priesthood than where does that leave the lay men in the pews?

‪Theresa Woodhouse‪ I'll add another question: It seems that often when Catholic feminism gets discussed, men respond saying, "Women already have prominence in the Church because of Mary." We've had many posts on FemCatholic lately about how awesome Mary is, so I don't mean to denigrate her role, but I feel like Mary is sometimes used as a discussion ender. No need to talk about women! Mary! What's the best way to explain that we love Mary, but that we have to talk about more than her?

I don't mean to denigrate her role, but I feel like Mary is sometimes used as a discussion ender. No need to talk about women! Mary!

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ I was just about to say this! ‪There’s so much to unpack with that.

‪Charlene Bader‪ It's easy for me to resent the common, cultural Catholic depiction of Mary, when her image has been contorted into a battering ram for women who don't conform to that of a silent, demure lady on a pedestal. I still hold onto this post from FemCatholic last year about how placing the Virgin Mary on a pedestal risks dehumanizing her.

‪Megan Gettinger‪ I would say that Mary should be the conversation starter not ender! To simply use "because Mary" to get out of digging into tough questions seems to reveal not only a lack of understanding about the importance of working out these questions but also an oversimplification of the person of Mary herself!

To really get into who Mary is and what her relationship with the Trinity is would push far beyond the simple equivocation of Mary is silent/pure/submissive and perfect therefore the best way for a woman to be Catholic is to be silent/pure/submissive.

‪Also maybe this is too mushy, but I feel like Mary would hate to see her daughters or sons using her as a measuring stick for holiness rather than a vessel of God's grace and a maternal companion on our journey ‪😢

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ I guess it comes down to the fact that Mary is one of only two sinless people that ever existed in the world, and her role in the course of human history was pretty clear. It’s great that people love her, but that love doesn’t always translate into respect for normal, average, not-immaculately conceived women. And sometimes that love in fact harms us by setting up an impossible measuring stick where we are expected to imitate not her, but people’s idea of her.

Charlene Bader‪ This is really difficult to talk about. I've written and deleted five different comments, for fear of being misunderstood. Why am I walking on eggshells with this topic?!

I've written and deleted five different comments, for fear of being misunderstood. Why am I walking on eggshells with this topic?!

‪Mary Ashley Burton

‪Theresa Woodhouse‪ I agree! You'll notice that I didn't answer my own question...

‪Charlene Bader‪ My husband supports my Catholic feminism by recognizing my competence.

I can do basic household maintenance, yard work, finances, and other traditionally-male roles, without oversight, and without it challenging his identity as a man or a husband.

In the same vein, I know his competence is not limited to the garage and work outside the home. He is fully able to comfort children, cook meals, fold laundry, and complete other traditionally-female roles, without my challenge or oversight, and I appreciate that.

‪Kay Davis‪ I think with men trusting their own competence comes confidence with taking on emotional labor, helping with things around the house and child rearing.

‪I’m terrified that I’m going to marry a smart, loving, passionate, driven man..... and have him do nothing to help with raising children. Or take a back seat to any parenting I chose.

‪Charlene Bader‪ If he's smart, loving, and driven, I think he'll want to take an active, present, competent role in his children's lives, and I don't think he'll see his wife as a household chore robot!

There are still so many questions I have about the roles of men and women in the world, and the extent to which our gender should define these roles.

‪Others can support my Catholic feminism by letting me explore these questions and not feeling threatened by my compulsion to ask. (Telling me to go read Christopher West isn't helpful.)

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ ‪One point that has been haunting me lately is the fact that there's no one feature attributable to females across all species in nature. ‪For humans, if we just ignore people who fit outside these molds (women that aren't maternal, etc), how workable does that make our theological assumptions?

‪Charlene Bader‪ Mary Ashley, could you talk more about what you mean by not having one feature attributable to all females?

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ I mean...you can't say "it's a female thing to ______". What birth and motherhood look like, or dynamics and roles, are different from species to species. Some mothers eat their young. Some females pursue males. Some species have equal work duties. And there is even a lot of variation among human cultures.

These are very scattered thoughts that might be drifting off-topic, but it has had me wondering a lot about what is "natural". Obviously I don't consider us to be equal to animals, and I'm not saying we should consider animals to be our models...but it's more of a thought experiment.

‪Charlene Bader‪ This is fascinating and feeds my questions.

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ Charlene, I’m glad my random thoughts make some sort of sense...lol.

‪The point of it for me is that is really hard to talk about “proper” roles or make arguments from natural law, especially since some roles/behaviors are rooted in our fallen nature… To bring this back to the OP, it would really help if men recognized more often that sexism is a sin that should be rooted out in society (thus requiring an examination of cultural beliefs and practices) rather than becoming defensive or straight up denying that it exists whenever the topic comes up.

‪Samantha Povlock‪ This might be stating the obvious, except that I don’t think it’s obvious to men: I think women want men to ACKNOWLEDGE and AFFIRM them. Sometimes in marriage for example, wife can say, “I just want you to tell me I’m beautiful, or still attractive to you, or doing a great job, or that you really appreciate all I do.” Husband can say, but OF COURSE I feel this way! But wife can still say, “yeah, but I want you to TELL me.”

I think women want men to ACKNOWLEDGE and AFFIRM them.

‪Similarly, I think women really need men, ESPECIALLY priests and other church going men, to be willing to acknowledge and affirm women.

‪Struggling to fully explain this, so help me elaborate / give more specific examples if this makes sense!

‪Emily Archer‪ I think that's absolutely true! There are so many subtle (and not-so-subtle) ways that the devil uses to make us doubt ourselves (especially when sometimes it seems like most of the world thinks we're a little crazy). And maybe this is more true for women(?), maybe not, but reminders that we are valued and appreciated and supported and heard go such a long way, especially when they come "out of the blue.” Specifically re: feminism, sometimes it feels like being a feminist means making people uncomfortable (which, like, yeah, sometimes it does) - but it's nice to hear from those outside the "feminism" circle that we're enriching the Church, that we're contributing, that we're appreciated, and that we have something unique and beautiful to add. Instead of feeling like we're just tolerated with a mild level of constant suspicion.

‪Mary Ashley Burton‪ Yeah, it seems that often women are seen as just doing what needs to be done or, worse, just doing what comes "naturally" to them. But that does not mean that it's not hard or there are no struggles associated with it, or that we don't appreciate affirmation and recognition.

Men who are interested in diving in to what Catholic feminism means for them need to look to the example of Christ (!) in his interactions with women, and also to Pope St. John Paul the Great.

‪Megan Gettinger‪ With regards to this in particular, I think men who are interested in diving in to what Catholic feminism means for them need to look to the example of Christ (!) in his interactions with women, and also to Pope St. John Paul the Great in his Letter to Women and Mulieris Dignitatem. He communicates appreciation, empathy, regard, affirmation, and even remorse so beautifully:

‪"This word of thanks to the Lord for his mysterious plan regarding the vocation and mission of women in the world is at the same time a concrete and direct word of thanks to women, to every woman, for all that they represent in the life of humanity." (Letter to Women, 2)

Some of the names of FemCatholic Contributors in the above conversation have been changed.

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